getting to the crux of fae youth/elder visionary seeing, re: women on our lands

I've been following this "topic" a lot.
No where do I hear about the fact that way back when, there existed this phenomenon referred to as separatism.
If I remember correctly(and my mind was not clouded by the clouds of marijuana that seemed to hover everywhere back then-no criticism, just observation) women (particularly lesbian separatists) had a jump on a lot of this gathering and alternative earth centered stuff.
There were men, such as myself who would have loved to participate, but were told, by virtue of our anatomy, that our presence, however benign, was not welcome.
I realize this is all water under the bridge, but gay men at the time, had to do it for themselves. What has become to be known as the "faerie" movement seems to be an outgrowth (some might say co-option) of that.
I remember living at Elwha (a community in Western WA, started roughly at the same time as pre-Nomenus Wolf Creek.) where the men living on the land were specifically asked to leave for women's events-I being one of them at the time. Elwha was not a gender exclusive place.
I guess I'm still adjusting to post-radical lesbian feminist sensibilities. I remember a lesbian friend tell me that "girl" was no longer a gender exclusive term.
Not that I'm taking sides. I guess I'm just wondering why women want to have anything to do with the faeries, when, historically they've had their own spaces, rituals, etc.

This thread is also on California Radical Faeries Tribe but with this additional post from Hermeticbear which I've taken the liberty of copying and pasting to this tribe, as I feel it's very well written and eloquent.-JTF

herm...
hermeticbear
offline 34
Re: getting to the crux of fae youth/elder visionary seeing, re: women on our lands
Yesterday, 9:22 AM
I find the key phrase to your friends answer is this

"another one that is finding no problem in opressing me"

He sees oppression in the world around him constantly. I also see it as being made personal, when in most cases, it probably isn't. However, I do recognize the need and space for male only space. I also recognize that need for inclusiviness, and that it is happening with the currently youthful generation of faes, as they have not experienced the violence that was practiced against the older generation of faes, where many basic human and civil rights were denied to us.
At the same time I question the majority of the youth and thier desire to include women in male designated space. As I have experienced and had confirmed by many friends, the current generation is afflicted by what I recognize and a friends calls the "Will and Grace Syndrome". Because of deeper issues regarding thier sexuality, social role and status, shame, acceptance and self-esteem, many gay youth subsititute meaningful gay relationships with shallow female relationships. They are afraid of connecting with other gay men, and emotional and spiritual intimacy that it takes to really make a relationship successful (while perhaps they maneuver the seas of physical intimacy constantly) and so they make these connections with a female, who acts as a surrogate. I have noticed many people of this type in queer enclaves, and they are often socially awkward and prone to excess in mind altering substances (alcohol being the least of them) so that they may feel more comfortable in dealing with men, while seeking physical intimacy. Some of these people, may be seeking the inclusion of thier female surrogates, because they are afraid and mistrusting of thier male peers and elders because of interior issues, which can only be set aside when they are under the influence of chemical substances.
I recognize that there are exceptions to this trend, and many fae's maintain positive and healthy connections with women of all sorts. I also believe that these people also recognize the space for Males is as important as a mixed space, as important as a female only space, as important as a space for people who share a similar quality to commune and connect with each other, without having to feel bad or be demoralized because of thier desire to connect in a defined space and energy.
I would also like to add that I am coming from a witchcraft tradition that has a 20+ year history of male only space, but has a counterpart that is female only space, and in the past (but not that I know of recently, mostly because of distance and small numbers) that these two counterparts come together to create a shared space, but both recognizes the need for sex identified only space.
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cosm...
cosmic-ly craZy
offline 24
getting to the crux of fae youth/elder visionary seeing, re: women on our lands
Tue, June 10, 2008 - 7:46 PM
This is an excerpt of an exchange i'm having with a certain elder in our community. i thought i'd share it here with an invite to add to my (and your?) consciousness on this topic. Feel free to take this and post it on other faerie communal sites/boards!


i have to say that while i find myself on the fence on this topic, i am in agreement with you and the other elders whom have been taking the stand your are speaking of. Having said that, i see that the youth that you all have collectivley held on your shoulders (i.e. after, what, more than 20 years of fae community) are now only trying to take fae sensibility into places that their desires are going. New directions like becoming inclusive of women; and that those new directions make sense in today's realities as these youth feel them.

Even tho they are missing the polytricks of a lot of this, i think (i.e. where their approach has become "black and white" or "either/or").

Still, my own seeing is that the way in which this is happening sounds a lot like the political police (i.e. today's version of COINTELPRO) are influencing the nastier parts of how this vision wants to be implemented; i.e. as "each side" seemingly remains incapable of bridging between (and empathizing with) each others' positions. [Note: What the contexts of this seemingly impossible gap are, are perhaps many even tho i think they can all 'boil down to' one prevalent phenomenon, the one doing with "the generation gap"--which in itself is an artificially-promoted gap led by the political police both overtly and covertly]

Where our oft-spoken empathy *should* bring ecstatic room (much room) for dissent and grey area seeing, in actuality we are experiencing the superficiality of those claims and desires that have not been able to be practiced in such a way where they can be pivotal when *it truly counts*.

As far as faggot-centered decision-making on this? Well, a lot of the young generation are in on this; they are the leaders as far as i can tell; sooo, that means, FAGGOTS ARE making these decisions, divisive as they are, apparently.

i know my own experience in the context of faggots wanting women on the land; in the initial phases of women being invited, they become *more equal* than common faggot males like myself. So that's certainly an interesting phenomenon. Our need for sanctuary is being relegated to the sidelines as womenfolk are recruited (right word?) into the creation of something more dynamic (ultimately) than earlier renditions of faggotry and faggot community.

So it's the transition that i think we ought to cast our magick upon, my friend.

But of course, we are dealing with such in the context of more than 30 years of political police/Rollback efforts to divide our generations from each other (and not to mention the ramifications and reflections of oppressed faggot elder sensibilities now judged without empathy and in the most alienating ways; i.e. the prevalence of the phenomenon called "objectification" of each other amongst the elder portion of faggots, and today's safer approaches where "objectification" has to be evolved from in the younger generations' desires).

What do YOU think about all of THIS?

re: My friend said, in part:
but I truly feel they have no interest in understanding the roots of the fae movement and more pointedly the purchase of Wolf Creek. Because I know where those ideals came from and who made some of those decisions I am now the bad guy... Guess what.... I didn't really fit into any group when i was younger and now I find I do not fit in with another group.... another one that is finding no problem in opressing me.

OK so Most people here have heard what I have to say on this before...

but I would like to reiterate or summarize it here for the new generation of this debate.

I come from being raised in a truly matriarchal Civilization where the women control the wealth and the blood lines... and I see the wisdom of that.

the men have lodges in every town and village in their nation...
the women have lodges in every town and village as well.
it empowers them all.

their Nation has the strongest MEN I have ever seen and the Strongest WOMEN.

they do not consider it a separation... they consider it as 2 legs the tribe stands on...
the Whole tribe meets in both halls when they have the need.
there are also some Special men who work with the women in the kitchens as well, they seem to have a Unique relationship with those women ... (like Sisters) but on the Down Low when white folks are around... if you get my meaning.

I guess I have been sort of the poster child for the campaign to uphold M4M Space... (it has brought me alot of HATE from younger faes (or maybe it is because I am FAT? I do not think so, but maybe...)but it is the many who 'oppress' me and those like me... really seem to have closed minds. do not want to come to some compromise... they want what they want when they want it... IMO.

Most do not realize that those who work so hard to maintain SOME Margin of M4M Space in the Nomenus also support the idea of mixed gatherings, even the idea of a women's gathering on the land. you sure can not say that of the women’s sanctuary down the road... or the women’s temple in Portland (and No One is telling them they should or they are dinosaurs etc... )

It seems that many are terrified to be in all male space... for me the great spiritual longing, (and feeling of safety to be myself) I have for those spaces... (that I do not feel when women are present) are something to be treasured and savored... and protected from the threat of ‘assimilation‘.

Women have taught us for years that they understand the power of spaces with their peers...
most women around Nomenus understand the value of Men finding the same empowerment with other ‘Men’ (and yes you can get bent on the labels and gender issues... but for the sake of this conversation we have to have SOME Name for what we are speaking of). there is Great Power when Men (Or Fagots or whatever label you can cope with) come together to heal eachother... and NO ONE who has experienced it think it is the same as when women are present.

It is my Belief that until a man or ‘boy/man’ experience this... they have NO IDEA what is possible.
men have been reliant on women for comfort and compassion and healing and nurturing most of there lives... what is so scary about space that is set aside in the world for them, to find those Qualities in themselves? and to share that with their Brothers? why do SO MANY want to eradicate that?

the greatest lesson we could learn from the women, is how to be with each other and DO FOR OUR SELVES? I believe THAT was what Nomenus originally was about. Safe Space to explore that.
Oh and HeartCircles... that is whole other subject... why do the ‘younger faes’ so fear that tradition? I think there is a connection.

It has been called: “Resonant VS Harmonic” magic... I think Teddybear expresses that more clearly than I could... but maybe it is time to review that Idea as well he tells it better than I could...

let us also not forget that Kinsey suggested that there might be as many as 70% of the male population may be Bisexual... and that was considered a ‘minority group’ for years... but Nomenus included those brothers in our Church. so I guess it is no big surprise to realize not how many of them might women to Join us... but where does that leave us faggots who NEED M4M space? tough luck?

This is NOT by the way, a strictly generational issue... (as many might like to draw the line) many Younger Faes have come to me over the years and Secretly have confided that they value M4M space too... but that they do not feel it is safe to express this to their ‘peers’ so who is “oppressing” Who?

Years ago at the Seattle GC there was a meeting of the minds... it was really Quite beautiful.
a compromise was met, where Nomenus extended the opportunity to umbrella the pangender community to Organize and self actuate a plan, a way to raise funds from their gatherings ... to buy land... not with the idea that they were not welcome at Wolf Creek... but could respect the FAGGOT nature of the sanctuary and grow a new branch on our family Tree... or a new tree in the forest of family spaces, if you will... it was a break through ... there were lots of tears of joy and reconciliation... even apologies from some pangenderists to the elders who came to explain the intention of Nomenus founders. (jerrythefae can speak to that if he wants).

since then there has been Some talk ... and NO action.
there have been Many who would plug their ears and run away... “la La LA la... “?
there has be a years long struggle to put together a policy that would respect M4M Space when it is called... (witch many have blocked the conversations about and most still do not know the policy...)
there have been many times that when m4m space has been called and it is violated... not to mention the hostile letters to Nomenus “wake up and smell the pussy” by crystal cobra, springs to mind...

but lets face it... the younger generation does not have a motivation to Organize and fund raise, when they can kick grampa in the Nuts and take his farm for free... (or so it would seem). and once again we are Right back where we started with a bunch of people who think this is a brand new topic and that they are “being Oppressed”.

I personally would speak with who ever wanted to work out some compromise that laid this to rest....
I would love to see some the elder faggots who helped make WC happen come back to the land (Yup their not all dead, just many feel unwelcome) ... I love the M4M Sacred spaces I used to love before this divisive subject blocked out the sun.

in all the world the Faggots and Homosexuals deserve a place to think of as a homeland... their are very few left... because we were so welcoming and open to our “Friends”. for some of us that is a bitter pill to swallow. the Idea that there may never be another faggot beltane at wc makes me sad.

with Love and Respect to all that offer it in return.

Will I am
LaBette